PARKS & RECREATION COMMISSION MINUTES

 

JUNE 13, 2006

 

The meeting was called to order by Vice Chairperson Dwertman at 7:00 p.m.

 

MEMBERS PRESENT:  John Howard, Cathy Dwertman, Deborah Groat, Mary Catherine Rodenberger, Rowland Seymour  Excused:  Russ Jones, John Marshall

 

OTHERS PRESENT:  City Engineer Roush, Supt. of Parks & Rec Steve Conley, Clerk Patterson, Carmen Seymour, Pearl Drumm, Alan Seymour, John Kleinman, Cheryl Welty, Merrill Rausch, Evelyn & Don Graham, E. Martha Kramer, Leon Kramer, Dan Fogt, Betty Fogt, Jim Page, John and Catherine Cugeber, Pearl Blumenschein, Michael Robinson

 

APPROVAL OF MINUTES:  There being no additions or corrections, the minutes were approved as distributed.

 

REPORT OF DIRECTOR OF ADMINISTRATION:  No report.

 

REPORT OF SUPERINTENDENT OF PARKS & RECREATION:  Mr. Conley reported that the first Concert in the Park was held on Sunday with approximately 100 people in attendance.

 

The pool opened on Memorial Day weekend.  Attendance has been down due to the cool weather.

 

The Playground Program has begun at Eljer Park from 9:00 a.m. to 12:00 noon and 1:00 to 4:00 p.m. at Mill Valley.  It is supervised by two college students who provide planned activities for grades 1 up to 6. 

 

The next concert is June 25th.  Trombones Plus will be playing. 

 

COMMISSIONER’S REPORT ON INDIVIDUAL PARKS:  All of the parks look great.  Mr. Conley stated in regards to the picnic tables at Legion Park, he has asked Building and Grounds to try to have them fixed or replaced by the Day in the Park on July 8th.

 

Mr. Seymour said Mill Creek Park looks great with a lot of activity, but complained about the lack of parking space.  Mr. Conley stated in 2011, we can hopefully fix that problem. 

 

CITIZENS’ COMMENTS ON NON-AGENDA ITEMS:

 

OLD BUSINESS:

 

Ms. Dwertman asked that if the Commission had no objection she would like to move “Comments of Citizens – Agenda Items” up to when discussion of that topic takes place instead of after New Business.  No objections.

 

          SOUTH PARK

Mr. Roush addressed this issue.  He distributed a report from John Shady, Environmental Scientist from Malcolm Pirnie, the firm who did an independent review of South Park.  From his analysis, it was determined that the three components of a classified wetland are present in South Park.  The three criteria for a wetland are:

1)     Hydrophytic Vegetation – Prevalent vegetation consists of plants that are adapted to areas having hydrologic and saturated soil conditions.

2)     Hydrology – Area is inundated either permanently or periodically at mean water depths < 6.6 feet, or soil is saturated at the surface at some time during the growing season of the prevalent vegetation, and

3)     Hydric Soils – Soils have been classified as hydric, or possess characteristics associated with reducing soil conditions.

 

Mr. Roush said Mr. Shady shared some information about the question that was asked. We understand this area had been farmed at one time with crops on it and he said that the agriculture is somewhat exempt from wetland requirement, and that once a property stops being agricultural and farmed, if the soils (inaudible) to the present can revert to a wetland.  Investigation done on the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers’ website support that position.  The information on the website indicates that once a property is farmed and then is no longer farmed, wetlands can be determined within six months after being farmed. 

 

Mr. Roush distributed a Fact Sheet from Ohio EPA as an introduction to House Bill 231 talking about Isolated Wetlands in Ohio. 

 

Mr. Roush noted an article in the Journal Tribune done by Ryan Horns.  He tried to do a nice article, but unfortunately it would appear from the article that the research he did and the study he references in the article was done specifically for the Adena Pointe development and not South Park.  Mr. Roush distributed information on Adena Pointe.  As far as Adena Pointe developers putting in a pond in South Park, it appears it would have to be a mitigated condition. As Adena Pointe is developed and the storm drain system is being designed in Adena Pointe, it will repair the damage that has been done in the old Bishop Ditch tile and will provide an outlet for that east side of South Park where the lines join.  That will be in Phase 4 of the development.  He also noted Ms. House has been working with the developer to commit to some improvements in South Park.  At the very minimum, would like the developer to help put the trail system around that park that was proposed as part of the Master Plan. 

 

Mr. Conley asked Mr. Roush if we were to get a 404 or 401 permit, could we put in a retention pond w/aeration and could we also put in the walking trails.  The Corps of Engineers is the only one who can answer that.  Mr. Roush thought we could do something, but it’s just a question of how much.  Mr. Seymour stated in his conversation with the Army Corps of Engineers, they stated regardless of whether it’s a man-made wetland or a natural wetland, you could apply for a permit and there would be no reason for the permit to be denied.  Mr. Roush stated there are limits on permits, such as in some cases a permit for a wetland means you have to mitigate the wetland, meaning you have to replace it with a different wetland at some other point at 1-1/2 times the area of the wetland you are disturbing, which could be very expensive.  Mr. Seymour noted that Adena Pointe applied for a permit on their wetland and received it to put in a retention pond and set aside .400 of an acre to replace the wetland.  Mr. Roush said you can disturb a wetland up to a half acre under a nationwide permit.  If you go over a half acre, you have to do some mitigation.  South Park has three acres.  Mr. Seymour asked how can you determine someplace to be a wetland when it accepts 3” of water in two days and three days later you mow it.  Mr. Jim Page said frequency of water in and water out causes wetlands.  Mr. Seymour stated the residents of Greenwood Colony want the City to repair the tile to its original purpose or install a retention pond to control the water.  Mr. Roush stated the City is still investigating what their options are.  Mr. Page stated it costs $19,000/acre at 1-1/2 times an acre.  A long permit procedure will take about 6 months, a short permit procedure takes about 2 months. 

 

Mr. Page stated there is water coming across from the golf course.   He thought Mr. Drumm put in the tile that goes up there to drain it.  Mr. Drumm said there was one there and he added an additional tile.  The City put in a catch basin.  Mr. Page said that tile is a lot smaller than the one going across the road from the golf course so probably no matter what you do, you’re going to have some water to hold somewhere for a while.  You are going to have more water coming across the road than you’re going to be able to get rid of right away.  Mr. Roush confirmed that we’re wanting to put a pond in there and the City wants the Adena Pointe developers to provide a better outlet.  He understands that the tile that was put through South Park was put in all the way to the edge of South Park.  Mr. Page has notes on a 1984 Plan that said the tile appears good from this point downstream, which is on the other side of the woods.  The work that Mr. Drumm did was in June of 1999.  Mr. Page stated it’s too small to take all that water.  Mr. Roush said it could be plugged with debris.  Adena Pointe will take care of the outlet part, but not the part that’s actually in South Park itself.  The Adena Pointe plans call for them to accept all the water that comes through that whole area west of London Avenue.  The pre-development tributary map shows there is about 137-1/2 acres west of London Avenue that comes through South Park.  It includes part of the Milford Estates subdivision and goes as far over as Milford Avenue.  The water comes through the Milford Estates subdivision through the golf course; all of Timberview comes through that culvert on London Avenue and goes through the park.  Adena Pointe intends to put a pipe in to continue the flow of all that water through their subdivision up to the Town Run.  They will build a series of four detention ponds in their allotment to take care of this water.  They’re going to build detention in their allotment that will hold about 12-1/2 acre feet of water.  That would be 12-1/2 acres of ground, 1 foot deep.  That’s the volume of water determined they need to hold to meet the MORPC design.  They are actually proposing 18.9 acre feet of storage.  They are planning to store 1-1/2 times what the design figures show they need to store. 

 

Mr. Page said the City could go ahead and apply for the Army permit and pay for what you think you’re going to do and the Army won’t know the difference.  It will take six months.

 

Mr. Conley said he hopes she (meaning lady at Army Corps of Engineers) gets it right because in the article that she referred to, she said that the City should have known already that South Park was a wetland.  He thinks she was confusing it with Adena Pointe.  Mr. Roush agreed.

 

Mr. Page said there is a soil wetland expert that lives on Rt. 38 and goes by this area every day. He said it would cost $200 for him to stop by on his way home to say whether or not it’s a wetland. 

 

Unidentified person said Pewamo soil determines if it’s a wetland.  He said where the city is putting their sanitation plant is pewamo soil.  He owns 100 acres right around that area and farmed it for years.  The new plant is being built in wetlands.  It could be determined wetland if it was done within a certain period when it discontinued agriculture.  It was farmed up until 1977 until they added all that acreage across Rt. 38. 

 

Mr. Rowland Seymour said that if you have a drain tile going to property to drain rain water and that tile breaks down and is left down and the water doesn’t get out, it will eventually become a wetland.  Mr. Roush said it depends on the soil type.  Mr. Seymour said it will eventually become a wetland because if the water can’t leave; it’ll become flooded and the soils will produce a wetland.  Mr. Roush stated there is a difference between flooded land and wetlands. 

 

Mr. Seymour says the work that Adena Pointe plans to do will not do any good unless the City repairs the tile in South Park.  That 17” tile that was installed in 1915 all the way from 38 to the Call woods is broken down and deteriorated and should be replaced. 

 

The City is being cautious about going in and doing anything to this land if it’s a wetland because the Army Corps of Engineers can come in and fine the City.

 

Mr. Seymour asked why the City chose Malcolm Pirnie to make this decision, why not the Army Corps of Engineers.  Mr. Roush stated the Army wants the City to collect the data, then they will review it.  Malcolm Pirnie, specifically John Shady, did all the environmental reports for the water reclamation facility and the City was impressed with his character and credentials. 

 

Unidentified person said developer A came in a while ago and said it was not a wetland and now developer B is coming in and says it is a wetland.  He feels whatever the developers want to have happen to that park, is what will happen and that’s wrong. 

 

Mr. Conley’s take on this is that they had a meeting to discuss the pond that Beazer Homes wants to put in, one of the gentlemen said his people had looked at it and they were reluctant to do anything because they feel it might be a wetland.  That’s where things changed. That’s the first time any development has mentioned to him that it’s a wetland. 

 

Unidentified person said he moved into the area in 1993 and asked if anyone would build back there and was told “no, we did soil samples, there’s no way” so the developers knew it.  “We need some accountability longer than service.”  He envisions this new subdivision coming in to the corner and say they’ve met their obligations, we’re done.  He said there is no water in that corner.  He doesn’t know what they’re draining. 

 

Mr. R. Seymour doesn’t understand why they want to put a detention pond in their wetland and not in South Park.  Mr. Roush explained they can do that because they limited the amount of wetland they’re going to disturb in their allotment so they stay under the nationwide permit (401 permit) instead of having to get the 404.  Mr. Seymour stated, “I have a feeling there’s something here we don’t know about.”  Mr. Roush stated there is nothing here you don’t know about.  Mr. Conley took offense to Mr. Seymour’s comment.  Mr. Conley stated he has never given anyone special treatment for anything, no matter who it is.  As far as he’s concerned, we’re going to do things that are right and correct as the same for everyone.  

 

Unidentified person stated Pearl Drumm showed him exactly how to drain the whole thing.  Adena Pointe is going to put a pond right through the tile that now drains South Park.  He said to let Pearl Drumm and Jim Page do something and do the right thing; you could drain that thing and keep it drained forever.  “Why stick your head in the sand and try to let Adena Pointe tell you what to do?”  Mr. Roush stated Adena Pointe is not telling us what to do.  Unidentified person said, “Anyone can tell you it’s a wetland if that’s what you want, but why don’t we do the right thing and drain the thing and forget about the wetland.”  He noted the ponds they’re putting in are getting awful close to the airport.  He was told that if there’s a tile that drains a piece of property that it can no longer be declared a wetland and there is a tile that goes right through there.  Mr. Roush stated that in talking with the environmental scientist, you can have tiles through wetlands.

 

At the last Parks & Rec meeting, the Board discussed drafting a resolution to take to City Council.  In Mr. Marshall’s absence, Ms. Dwertman read a portion of the minutes from the last Council meeting where Mr. Marshall spoke on this issue. 

 

“Mr. Marshall reported that Parks & Recreation Commission will meet one week earlier this month, June 13th.  At the last meeting, South Park was discussed at length.  Planning Commission has heard part of the discussion, as well as the article in the paper.  Mr. Marshall asked everyone to be patient and allow the process to work.  Educate yourself a little bit as to what a true wetlands is; it is not a mud puddle and it is not a swamp.  Anyone who has questions should contact John Rockenbaugh who has offered his expertise.

 

There will be more discussion at the next Parks & Rec meeting on June 13th.

 

Regarding drafting a resolution to bring to City Council, since zoning has been set, Mr. Marshall is not sure City Council would be the best place to address this.   He asked Mr. Seymour to be in contact with Planning Commission as they may be much closer to the situation and have more control over how the resolution would take place.

 

Mr. John Cunningham stated discussions on drainage issues were held at a recent Planning Commission meeting, and in particular, this area is a significant concern.  He spoke with Phil Roush and Phil is willing to work with Planning Commission on the drainage issues.  Mr. Cunningham would like to host a joint session between Planning Commission and City Council to have this type of discussion.  They feel this would be an education and awareness session and hopefully would give some direction in planning so they could better utilize and make judgments in the future.”

 

Mr. Fogt addressed the Commission.  He referred to a document from John Rockenbaugh.  What bothers him is if this area is declared a wetland and if we try to create a wetland, it’s got a list of the animals, predators and mosquito predators that thrive in healthy wetlands and they include many things, but what bothers him most are the frogs and the non-venomous snakes, etc.  People in the area have already had problems with snakes.  The land gets wet which draws those types of animals in there, then when the land dries out, those animals find someplace else to live and that’s the neighboring houses.  These mosquito predators come in and control the mosquitoes but when it dries out, these animals are looking for a place to live.  He is not looking forward to this.  He does not want it to become a wetland. 

 

Mr. Leon Kramer stated the back of his house faces the park.  He stated the City installed two or three drops in that tile.  One is at the intersection at the woods at Adena Pointe and that one is blown out completely.  He said it’s because it’s blocked below there and the water backs up and forces it out and now it’s all blown out.  The problem is from the woods on down.  If this tile were to function properly, this would not develop here.  Mr.  Roush said when Adena Pointe develops, that’ll be fixed. 

 

Mr. Jim Page said he and his partner studied this area some time ago and had a plan that was dated 1984.  In 1984, the plan was to take that water over to Greenwood Colony.  There is a note on the plan that says “tile broken down from logging operation in the woods.”  He feels what the residents are saying is probably right, that the tile is broken downstream and Adena Pointe is probably doing the right thing.   They have the plans and their engineers have looked at them.  It looks like two things can be done.  #1. You don’t have to go down in that hole to check that tile; you can go up on the hill out of the wetlands and trench down.  City should not be afraid to go up there east of that hole and dig down to the tile and then go down there 2,000 ft. or so to Adena Pointe.  There are several hundred feet of tile down to Adena Pointe.  You could go ahead and open up the tile on the hill and open it down near the woods somewhere and at least go and check that section of tile ahead of time.  You would not be disturbing the wetlands.  He suggested going ahead and applying for the 404 permit right now based on Adena’s plans and supposing what they’re doing is right and if what they do is done, then you could go ahead and prepare the plan for the rest of the area clear over to Rt. 38.  The 404 permit doesn’t cost a lot of money just to get it into the Army Corps of Engineers to check.  It may cost $5,000 to get the plans into the Army Corp, once you have the field work on paper.  It only gets expensive when you have to remove the wetlands. 

 

Mr. Fogt asked, “What if you apply for that 404 and then Adena Pointe fixes the tile and the drainage works like it’s supposed to and then there is no more water problem up there, have we created a problem by getting the Army Corp involved?”  Mr. Page said if you have a wetlands there, which he feels it probably is, and big as the area is, it will take a 404 permit and with all this pressure from the public, he feels the City would have a very strong case of getting that either moved or altered. 

 

Mr. Roush stated from what he’s hearing from the people, they don’t want the area to be determined to be a wetland.  Mr. Page said, “You can’t just hide from it; if it’s a wetland, it’s a wetland.  Wetlands can be developed on a construction site.”  If the three criteria for a wetland are present, you have a wetland. 

 

Ms. Groat asked if the City could maintain the tile without getting cited by the Army Corps of Engineers?  Mr. Page said he feels the City has the right to maintain the tile, but before they go down there and start digging up tile, he’d go outside the wetlands and make sure.  Mr. Roush agreed that the City has the right to maintain the tile.  Ms. Groat stated we need more patience to see what Adena Pointe does and then take the City’s right to maintain their own property and at that point, determine the future of that whole area.  She feels it is a good suggestion to apply for whatever permits are necessary.

 

Mr. Seymour stated the City has an obligation to repair the tile. 

 

Mike Robinson’s property borders the park.  He noted prior to the City bulldozing that, the previous owner was ordered by the City to bring in a backhoe and dig a ditch for the tile.  He said it is what it is and it’s always been that.  If we’re worried about what the Army Corps of Engineers are going to think; we’ve already done that as a City.  He noted it was stated earlier that predators will control mosquitoes; that is wrong.  When that was a wetlands behind his house, beginning in June, you could not walk in his backyard after 4:00 p.m because of the mosquitoes.  You must have a plan to control mosquitoes if you’re going to have a wetland. 

 

Mr. Conley stated if this is determined to be a wetland, he does not think a pond will be built.  If it is a wetland, we’ll let the native grasses grow and put trails where we can. 

 

Unidentified resident said she would be perfectly happy if the City continues to mow the grass and the tile is repaired. 

 

Mr. Conley confirmed if the City could go in and repair the tile, that is the high land tile above the lower swales, cut the grass and everyone would be happy.  Response from residents was, “Yes.”

 

Mr. Seymour asked what assurance do they have as residents there that the Adena Pointe development will not back water up into South Park.  Mr. Page stated that’s not going to happen.  They are going to tie the drain tile that comes from South Park into their drainage system. 

 

Mr. Conley stated it’s probably always going to be technically a wetland because the Pewamo soils are going to be there.  The water will stay there when a big rain comes and the vegetation is there, so to say that if we fix the tile it’s no longer a wetland is not true. 

 

Mr. Pearl Blumenschein addressed the Commission.  He stated Pearl Drumm showed him this water goes down behind Eljers Park in that big tile.  That tile is 90% full of rocks.  Mr. Roush stated he talked to Steve Stolte three years ago because that was a county ditch (and has since been told it no longer is).  The Soil & Water Conservation Service has a program that they’ll help with the tile repairs if someone agrees to farming the property.  The County contacted some of the property owners, and they were unwilling to guarantee that they would farm it for another 20 years so the program was not taken advantage of.  Mr. Blumenschein said the right thing to do is take the rocks out of those tile and follow that all the way back.  Mr. Roush said the City or County cannot do that; it’s up to the individual property owners to repair the tiles on their property.  The City went to these property owners 3 years ago and they refused to let the City onto their property.  The City would have to take the owners to court to make them do repairs.

 

Mr. Pearl Drumm said, “You think you’ve got a problem now, but you check the development going on out there on Weaver Road now. They are digging right through it and are running over it with big dump trucks for the last week, loads of stone.  I’m sure it’s mashed down.”

 

Ms. Dwertman stated she didn’t think there was anybody on this board that’s unsympathetic.  She’s not sure that the board is just not citizens along with the rest in this case.  She does not know that they have any more right to change this than the residents.  The Board can advise City Council, etc, but feels we need to be patient and maybe get those drain tiles fixed. 

 

Unidentfied person said in talking about the drain tiles, there is water that lays there and eventually drains away.  Will there be a continuation of people digging a trench coming down into that basin and relieving the water from some other place.  She has been there four years and it’s been done twice.  They brought it out from 38 somewhere and brought it down to the biggest pond.  Mr. Conley believes that since there is an opinion that this area is a wetland, he didn’t feel it would happen any more.

 

          PARK PROJECT PLAN

 

Mr. Conley noted in 2008 for the City Pool, plan showed to build a storage area off the concession area.  That was done this year with money donated to Parks & Rec by Paris Township, so delete that project.

 

YEAR 2007

          City Pool – Carpenter ants have been discovered in the roof of the City Pool, so the roofing needs repairs.  He is proposing replacing the wood that lies underneath the shingles.  Cost is $35,000.

 

          Mill Valley Park South – Put in a restroom/shelter.  Due to the fact that water and sewer need to be run, increase price to $150,000 from $115,000.  Total for 2007 is $185,000. 

 

YEAR 2008

          MacIvor Woods – Put in a gravel drive and parking lot back to the area at the cost of $30,000.  Had originally scheduled this and paving for 2010.  Mr. Conley suggested breaking up this project by putting the gravel drive and parking lot in 2008 then pave it in 2010. 

 

          Mill Valley Park Central – Move project scheduled for 2010, Trail entrance off of Creekview, landscape $23,000 to 2008.

 

YEAR 2009

          Aldersgate – Put in concrete sidewalks.  The $21,000 cost is about three years old, so Mr. Conley suggested increasing it to $24,000.  He noted we need to keep the figure under $26,000 because that’s the magic number for prevailing wage now.  That number changes from time to time.  By keeping it under the prevailing wage number, it will save the City 1/3 of the cost. 

 

YEAR 2010

          MacIvor Woods – Delete excavation and leave pave drive and parking lot w/shelter.  Nothing can be put inside the preserve.  He envisions a small shelter at the entrance with a couple of picnic tables, garbage can and a sign telling about the preserve.

 

YEAR 2011

          Eljer Park – Bridge replacement/repair, $35,000.  He noted this past week the city crew has been over there replacing a few of the boards on the bridge. 

 

          Mill Creek Park – Increase the parking area, pave and gravel at a cost of $45,000.

 

          Aldersgate – Restroom facilities, estimated cost $86,000.  City crew would be doing water and sewer work. 

 

Mr. Seymour questioned the allocation of $150,000 for Mill Valley Park when only $75,000 is allocated for South Park.  Mr. Conley pointed out that $20,000 is allocated for South Park in 2010.  Mr. Seymour says it looks a little lopsided.  Mr. Conley said the Commission can adjust the Plan however they chose.  Mr. Howard stated the problem with South Park is it’s a moving target.  It’s hard to say we’re showing favoritism toward one park over another when South Park definitely needs the money, but we don’t know what to do there.  Mr. Roush stated the City has a commitment from Adena Pointe developers to do some improvements at South Park. 

 

It was agreed that the $75,000 in the 2006 budget for South Park would be used for drain repair.  The Commission requested the City start the process as soon as possible. 

 

Mr. Robinson stated a number of years ago, it was promised to put in a double row of trees as a buffer between the homes and South Park.  Nothing has been done.  Kids run or ride their bikes through their yards.  When he met with Mr. Rockenbaugh, he gave him a list of trees that are native to Ohio and what native grasses could be put in there.  He’ll look at that list to see what can be planted.

 

Unidentified resident asked with the number of houses going in Adena Pointe, shouldn’t they have their own park.  Mr. Roush stated that when subdivisions go through Planning Commission for platting, there is a determination made whether they’ll provide parkland or money in lieu of parkland.  The City’s position for the last several years is to take the money, $1,000 per lot, because we don’t need the parkland. 

 

Mr. Conley stated one thing we need to look at as a group is park usage and compare South Park to Mill Valley.  From a visual, he guaranteed there are hundreds of people a day who utilize Mill Valley Park compared to very few at South Park because there is nothing there to utilize. 

 

Mr. Seymour asked when the shelter house would be replaced at Schwartzkopf Park.  Response was as soon as Mr. Conley can find a company to come in and build it for what we have budgeted.  $12,000 or $14,000 is budgeted for this project. It should be built this year.   Mr. Seymour asked if there were any plans to replace the cooking grates?  Mr. Conley wrote a PO to replace the catchers where the coals sit, but not the grates.

 

Mr. Howard moved to approve the 2007-2011 Capital Improvement Plan as presented, seconded by Ms. Groat; affirmative voice vote was unanimous.

 

NEW BUSINESS:

 

Mr. Conley announced the Day in the Park would be held on July 8th at Legion Park.  Volunteers are needed.  Contact Mr. Conley if you can volunteer.

 

COMMENTS OF INDIVIDUAL COMMISSIONERS:

 

Ms. Groat thanked Mr. Roush for attending and offering his expertise.  Mr. Howard said the entire Commission thanks Mr. Roush.  He stated, “It’s not really an us versus them situation as it seems once in a while, because everybody is wanting the same thing here I think.  It’s just that our hands are tied.  Just wait and see what happens.” 

 

ADJOURNMENT:  There being no further business to come before Parks & Recreation Commission, the meeting adjourned at 8:45 p.m.